David
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 posted on 28-2-1010 at 04:27 PM |
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Mahler and Bernstein
With complete cycles of the Mahler symphonies scheduled for Manchester and London in 2010/11 do we know what Birmingham has in stall?
Also with it being the 20th Anniversary Of Lenny's death can we expect some serious Bernstein in 2010? The symphonies, Seranade, Chichester Psalms
or, god forbid, his wonderful Mass, perfectly suited to Symphony Hall.
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patrick116
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| posted on 1-3-1010 at 04:41 PM |
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Hi David
I had heard that the CBSO are planning to do all Mahler symphonies next season but I'm sure Anna Ambrose will be able to confirm or correct my
comments at some point.
Recognition of Bernstein 's classical works would be a nice tribute I guess we'll have to wait and see!
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brucknerian
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| posted on 10-3-1010 at 04:08 PM |
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Very good thought about Bernstein, David: I'd forgotten the forthcoming anniversary. But I'd like to widen the discussion somewhat and point out the
CBSO's relative neglect of American music more generally. Yesterday was Samuel Barber's centenary, for example, and my impression is that, in spite
of his being an unequivocally major composer, most cultural organizations in this country, including the CBSO, ignored the fact. And this season we
have had at least two outstanding American conductors, Spano and Litton, neither of whom has programmed a note of American music. Copland seems to get
the odd CBSO outing (I remember Dudamel and Litton doing some in recent years); but has the orchestra ever played, for example, any Piston? Schuman?
Carter? There's a lot of absolutely first-rate stuff out there.
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patrick116
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| posted on 10-3-1010 at 06:30 PM |
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The CBSO did perform Bernstein's "West Side Story Symphonic Dances" on 10th December 2009 but I agree that there is much more North American music
(and South American too) that could be considered in future concerts.
There have been a few South American works this season but this is another relatively untapped source of some great music.
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David
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| posted on 15-3-1010 at 12:14 PM |
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Well posted brucknerian. I have a particular thing about Bernstein having met him on 2 occasions. He wrote so much more than West Side Story and
thanks to Marin Alsopp his more serious work is being re appraised, but why does it always have to be in London. I'm afraid the CBSO is losing my
money this season because I'm attending several of the concerts at the South Bank as part of the Bernstein season including the performance of MASS.
I agree thoiugh that Birmingham is starved American music in general and hope that this can be remedied in the future.
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RichardBratby
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| posted on 23-3-1010 at 12:09 PM |
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Intersting discussion. Plenty of Mahler coming up, true, but not so much American music? Well, I'd just add that so far this season, in Centre
Stage, we've played Castelnuovo-Tedesco and Villa-Lobos, and coming up soon we have Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, Dave Brubeck and an entire evening
of Piazzolla (our third in recent seasons). Next season's plans (to be fair, not yet published, so no-one knows this yet!) include a brass quintet
tribute to Bernstein, more Villa-Lobos and the Copland Sextet.
The CBSO Youth Orchestra has, over the last few seasons, played John Adams "The Chairman Dances" and Bernstein's "Divertimento" and is going to
do the Gershwin Concerto in F next season.
Looking back a bit - and depending on my own fairly unreliable memory - the CBSO has (in relatively recent seasons) played all three of Barber's
concertos, ande the UK's first ever Charles Ives symphony cycle; as for Elliott Carter, we played his horn concerto as recently as 2008 and gave the
UK premiere of his "Of Rewaking" in 2005. Thinking again of Centre Stage, I can recall performances of Steve Reich, John Adams, Philip Glass,
Lowell Liebermann, Bernstein, Barber, Copland, Gershwin, Villa-Lobos, Piazzolla, Daniel Catan, Revueltas, Guerra Vicente, Jorge Bosso and Richard
Rodgers.
I'm assuming, for the sake of argument, that numerous whole-evening tributes to John Williams, Roders & Hammerstein, Gershwin, the "Broadway"
Bernstein and Lerner and Loewe (to say nothing of Charle Chaplin silent film scores) don't count?
So it's not as bad a track record as all that, though I (personally) agree that the Barber anniversary is a missed opportunity. How many people even
know that Barber himself actually conducted the CBSO in 1946 (his First Symphony - which he brought in at a nippy 18 minutes!)?
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brucknerian
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| posted on 24-3-1010 at 06:13 PM |
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Some very interesting facts emerge from Richard's reply: no, indeed, I had no idea Barber had ever appeared in Birmingham; and I confess I'd
forgotten the 2008 Carter (doubtless because I wasn't able to go) and the Ives cycle (which I didn't hear because I'm afraid I've never been able
to persuade myself to stomach, let alone like Ives). Other than that, I should perhaps stress that I have been trying to break a lance specifically
for U. S. American music (South American composers seem to be rather 'in' at the moment - all part of the Dudamel effect?); and actually more
specifically for a particularly distinguished (U.S.) American symphonic tradition which is in my view unusual, perhaps unique, in combining a kind of
scholarly seriousness with a distinctly modern, but accessible style (perhaps this is unique because of the unusual ways in which orchestral works are
often commissioned in the States). In other words, I'm not talking about 'crossover' composers or the avant-garde, but a line that includes, yes,
Copland, Barber and Carter, but also, crucially, Piston, Schuman, Roy Harris, Hovhaness, and arguably (bringing things right up to date) the likes of
Corigliano and Higdon. Many of those names are conspicuously absent from Richard's long list. And they deserve to be heard and re-assessed. Maybe in
a few years time a demand will be created by people who've been sampling some of the terrific American Music series (featuring the wonderful Ms Alsop
and others) on Naxos?
Incidentally, the list of works performed at Centre Stage doesn't really give a lot of help to those who (a) are primarily interested in orchestral
music (which is what this thread began by discussing), and (b) work in the day time!
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patrick116
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| posted on 25-3-1010 at 04:30 PM |
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Much as I appreciate the eclectic mix of great music provided by Centre Stage concerts I'm in agreement with "brucknerian" in that this thread was
about orchestral music and also that Centre Stage concerts are also difficult for me to attend.
My mention of South American music was nothing to do with this musical genre being "in at the moment" as I have vinyl LP's dating from the 1960's
(yes I'm that old!) featuring amongst others, Villa-Lobos, Guarnieri, Revueltas, Fernandez and Chavez.
Maybe, like clothing fashions, what is currently musically fashionable is actually just a return to previous generations tastes!
I do, however, agree that the American orchestral composers (of either continent) do not perhaps receive the concert time they merit and both
"David" and "brucknerian's" original posts illustrate that fact.
Credit to Richard, though, for reading and responding with his views as I'm sure he has a few other tasks he has too do in his working day :-)
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brucknerian
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| posted on 26-3-1010 at 08:54 AM |
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Yes, I take Patrick's points absolutely. If there is (for example) a South American 'bandwagon' at the moment, then clearly it's because some
people built the wagon and set it in motion when to do so was UNfashionable! And, yes, clearly fashions do come and go. No doubt the reason why we
still hear so much music from previous centuries at concerts is that the works in question have stood the test of time, survived the vagaries of
fashion and proved themselves timeless. But of course, as I'm sure we all agree, we need to hear them as well as (even better, alongside) both the
fashionable and unfashionable works of our own day. Sometimes there seems to be just so much to listen to and so little time in which to listen to it!
Sorry to get (kinda) philosophical on a Friday morning...
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RichardBratby
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| posted on 26-3-1010 at 10:57 AM |
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Well, I've certainly argued the cause of Howard Hanson a few times around here (and will continue to argue for Samuel Barber: my personal fantasy =
Andris conducts "Vanessa"; imagine that, but don't hold your breath!) - but as ever, it comes down to a balance between what is likely to attract
an audience, and what conductors actually want to perform.
There are many other factors, of course, but if a conductor is passionately determined to perform a certain work, and we can programme it in such a
way that the concert as a whole still has a fighting chance of getting an audience (the painful fact is that an unfamiliar name on an otherwise
popular programme can have a marked and costly "deterrent" effect on audiences), odds are it'll get played. Next season, for example, there's a
good chance we'll be doing a Stenhammar symphony - because one particular conductor (and you might be surprised which one) is absolutely
determined.
But it takes passionate advocacy and in my - fairly limited - experience, I get the impression that not many of the conductors we use actually are
coming through and arguing convincingly for Piston, Harris, Schuman, Hovhaness, David Diamond, Paul Creston etc.
And of course, plenty of people will argue that - if we're going to take risks on neglected, attractive but ultimately second-rate twentieth-century
symphonies (**Disclaimer - purely the personal, private opinion of R Bratby!**), a British orchestra should be giving pride of place to William Alwyn,
EJ Moeran, Arnold Bax, Edmund Rubbra, Gordon Jacob, Malcolm Arnold, William Mathias, George Lloyd, Havergal Brien and (if I had anything to do with
it, which I emphatically don't) Daniel Jones. Likewise, Jennifer Higdon, John Corigliano etc get a lot of attention from US orchestras; our duty is
to Macmillan, Anderson, Birtwistle, Bedford etc. If you buy into that particular "national" argument, that is; I'm not sure I agree, but many
people seem to.
Centre Stage is probably the one area of CBSO programming where the musicians can have the final say in what's played, and therefore the one place
where personal penchants for Dunhill, Martinu, Bowen, Glazunov, Glass, Stockhausen, Liebermann, Dohnanyi, Taneyev etc can be indulged amongst
consenting adults in a consequence-free environment. Which is why it's the most eclectically-programmed of all our series. But of course, I'm aware
that, as Patrick points out, they're not orchestral, and take place (rather inconveniently) in the middle of the day.
Our Piazzolla concert, though, is on the evening of Sat 26 June, and it'll be fantastic - do come!
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brucknerian
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| posted on 26-3-1010 at 12:33 PM |
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Yes, sure - all that's very valid, not least the practical box office element. And I do appreciate, certainly, that the CBSO gives us a wider range
of music than many orchestras (I seldom go to International Series concerts these days largely because of their - usually - very conservative
programming).
I suspect I'm more firmly opposed to the 'national' argument than Richard is; but it's interesting that my initial frustration about Barber's
absence from the schedules was linked to the fact that I'd recently heard two terrific American conductors - Spano and Litton - in wholly
non-American programmes (this year, I should add - I remember Litton's Copland 3 a year or two back). And both of these gentlemen have very extensive
discographies of precisely the kind of U.S. American music whose loss I've been feeling. All seems a bit of a lost opportunity - for which, however,
there were doubtless valid reasons.
More power to the elbow of whomever's insisting on conducting Stenhammer. That man (or woman) has taste!
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patrick116
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| posted on 26-3-1010 at 04:03 PM |
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Good to read such a lively debate on musical tastes! In many ways there are elements from all the posts I concur with. It is interesting that as the
Centre Stage concerts are chosen by the musicians they offer such a broad church of music.
Whilst I agree with Richard about the neglected British composers he mentioned the reality is sadly that commercial decisions often have to take
precedence over our individual tastes when programming concerts a point which Richard validly makes.
I would, however, say that the CBSO and its ensembles do offer as wide a choice as you could probably find it is just a shame that the Centre Stage
concept is inevitably limited in accessibility due to the concert timings.
I also personally think that the CBSO management do try to offer variety and I think it is to the credit of Stephen Maddock et al that we do get the
chance to hear a wide range of music. As "brucknerian" said "so much to listen to and so little time in which to listen to it". As for being
philosphical on a Friday, I'll drink what your having, "brucknerian" :-)
Finally, lest we forget, the CBSO concerts plus Centre Stage do place a tremendous workload on the players and we should be grateful that they are
willing to dedicate so much time to offer so much choice!
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Azurite
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| posted on 13-4-1010 at 06:12 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David
With complete cycles of the Mahler symphonies scheduled for Manchester and London in 2010/11 do we know what Birmingham has in
stall? |
Looks like we have our own special treat on the Mahler side, all the symphonies and some, with Andris, Sakari and Sir Simon conducting the CBSO (also
MacKerras, Sinaisky, Van Sweden) 
Plus LSO/Gergiev, LPO/Jurowski, Orchestra of the Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia – Rome/Pappano, to keep the home team on their toes 
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